The following is a transcript of an interview with Marie Yovanovitch, former US Ambassador to Ukraine, which aired on Sunday, March 27, 2022 on “Face the Nation.”
JOHN DICKERSON: We want to go back to the war in Ukraine now and welcome the former US ambassador to the country, Marie Yovanovitch. She is the author of a new memoir, “Lessons from the Edge.” Good morning, Ambassador.
EX-AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE MARIE YOVANOVITCH: Good morning.
JOHN DICKERSON: President Biden, three days in Europe, Brussels, and then he went to Poland. What did you do with that visit?
YOVANOVITCH: I thought it was a very important trip where the president was able to demonstrate not only American leadership but Western unity in this important challenge that Russia has inflicted on Ukraine, but more broadly on the West.
JOHN DICKERSON: He spoke of unity. How fragile is this unit? Because it seems like everyone is saying the right thing. How fragile is it? So fragile? The president must pay a visit to keep him together.
YOVANOVITCH: I think for a month there was a symbolic effect, but there were also a lot of successes that were cited during the different summits. That was tight, but so was the European Union. It was the G7. There was – and then obviously – the trip to Poland, where he met with President Duda, as well as with Ukrainian refugees, as well as with the 82nd Airborne and, of course, what is important, with the ministers of Foreign and Defense Affairs of Ukraine. So I think a lot of things were done and a lot of announcements were made, you know, more and more humanitarian aid, the 100,000 places for refugees, more military groups that went out to Europe and the list goes on.
JOHN DICKERSON: The 100,000 refugees Biden said America would bring. How important is this when talking to Europeans who they are? I mean, Poland is taking on the weight of refugees. What is important is that when it comes to showing that America is pulling its weight, in the absence of a better term …
YOVANOVITCH: The burden and being supportive? I think it’s important, but honestly, my own opinion is that it’s just a start because when you have up to 10 million, maybe the numbers are even higher this morning. 10 million people displaced outside Ukraine, about 3.5 in Europe, 100,000 are not really starting to come close to the kind of figures we will probably have to show. That said, many Ukrainians do not want to come to the United States or even Western Europe. They want to be close because they want to come back and rebuild. I mean, it’s really inspiring.
JOHN DICKERSON: You have contexts. You live there. Tell me what you are hearing from Ukraine.
YOVANOVITCH: Well, you know, they’re cheering me on. You know, when I express worries and concerns, they tell me, don’t worry, we have that. Let’s keep fighting. And they are. And they ask us for help. And so recently, I received an email from one of my former bodyguards who wanted me to say, “Madam Ambassador, you know, I would never ask for it for myself, but I really need equipment for my team. You know, medical kits. I need body armor. I need boots. ” So I tried to connect it with some people who could provide it.
JOHN DICKERSON: As you read the statements of President Biden and other Americans who say, we are with you. We are with you. Are we with you except at the border?
YOVANOVITCH: Yes, well, you can imagine that on the one hand, perhaps at a very high level, they understand that we have the responsibilities of Article Five under the NATO Treaty. But on the other hand, they want us to do more. I think we are doing a lot, but I think we need to keep filling in when it comes to security aid because the Ukrainians are using everything we and other countries offer. But we must continue to fill it because it has been used.
JOHN DICKERSON: As a career diplomat, how do you read, and your experience is not only Ukraine but also Russia, how do you read this Donbass movement of the Russians? The idea that … the public statement is that they will focus on Donbas. Does this have an effect in terms of diplomacy? In other words, some countries might say, okay, well, it’s not nice, but will we give them Donbas just so we can end this war?
YOVANOVITCH: Yeah, I think so, maybe. But I think what we’ve learned over the last month and a half or several months, if not the last 20 years, is that we can’t always trust what the Russians are saying. So they made this statement and then one day more or less attacked Lviv in the west and far west of Ukraine, far away from the Donbas. So I think we have to wait and see.
JOHN DICKERSON: There’s an incredibly premonitory moment in your book where you talk about the United States not really reading Vladimir Putin well, and predicting that this is before any of this happens serious confrontation in a context that we do not choose and that does not benefit us. So, based on this platform, how is Putin’s interpretation, the interpretation of the West or the interpretation of the United States, how are we getting it right now and how should we think about the way he sees things?
YOVANOVITCH: Yes. You know, that’s the question right now, isn’t it? And I think it’s hard to know. It was always hard to know. But especially now after COVID and the isolation in which he finds himself with a very small group of advisers, people who have been with him, you know, from the KGB, St. Petersburg. And just in case, we don’t know much about what kind of advice you get or what you know. But I do believe that Putin is a man who only understands strength. And so when, as you know, right now, the Biden administration is trying to navigate this narrow path of support for Ukraine, on the one hand, defending our values and our interests, but also doing everything possible to not to expand. the war. And when we see it as a positive thing, that this is limited and positive, I think sometimes Vladimir Putin sees it as a sign of weakness. So again, this is a very difficult lane to navigate. And right now, I think the Biden administration is doing pretty well. But it obviously requires: it requires constant calibration and recalibration with respect to what is happening on the ground.
JOHN DICKERSON: I want to come up with something you wrote about in your book. You talked about masculinity in the State Department, about how there were no female models. Madeleine Albright, the first woman secretary of state, has died this week. You served under it. Tell me about this experience and how important it was to have a woman in this role.
YOVANOVITCH: Well, she … you know, she broke the glass ceiling. And once you have one, you’ll have another. And I think it was a role model for many of us. I was very young when … when she was secretary of state. But she was a pioneer as the first woman secretary of state. She was, as an immigrant in that country, in fact, I think, a refugee from Eastern Europe, war-ravaged Eastern Europe. He was a strong voice for democracy and human rights and for Ukraine. And so I got to know her a little bit. It was a privilege when she visited Ukraine while I was there as an ambassador, and she kindly spoke to me and gave me advice and encouragement.
JOHN DICKERSON: Okay, Marie Yovanovitch. Ambassador, thank you very much for being with us.
YOVANOVITCH: Thank you.
JOHN DICKERSON: And we’ll be right back.
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