The following is a transcript of an interview with former Attorney General Eric Holder which aired on Sunday, May 8, 2022 on “Face the Nation.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: And now we’re talking to former Obama administration Attorney General Eric Holder. He founded a group in 2016, the National Democratic Redistricting Committee, to help the party redesign the lines of Congress. And he has a new book called, Quote, Our Unfinished March. Good morning to you.
FORMER PROSECUTOR GENERAL ERIC HOLDER: Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Glad to have you here. You know, in the book you’re writing, both sides adopted gerrymandering when they were in control of state governments. But you say Democrats fell asleep behind the wheel when Republicans started investing 12 years ago in some of these local races. You know, critics call your strategy simply to sue blue that it’s just partisanship. How do you respond to that?
ERIC HOLDER: No, ours is a fight for justice. And yet we have filed many lawsuits, we have filed many lawsuits successfully to make sure that the process is done in a fair way and that the American people really choose their representatives instead of the politicians who choose their voters. , etc. sue in blue, that’s what they say when you’re winning in court, which is what we’ve done on many levels.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think Democrats have an advantage after entering the middle of the legislature compared to where you started?
ERIC HOLDER: Well, I think we certainly stopped Republicans when they said they wanted to secure a decade of power in this next decade based on the redistribution of districts they were going to do. We have slowed down this effort, and we certainly have fairer maps than we did in the last round of district redistribution. What really worries me, though, is that we have 40% fewer competitive seats than I think we should have as a result of what both parties have done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You say this is a matter of fairness, but you have not challenged any Gerrymander Democrat. Ed O’Keefe gave some of these examples. The two Democratic-approved maps were rejected by the courts in Maryland and New York. Do you have a problem with what happened there?
ERIC HOLDER: I indicated my opposition to what had happened: what the legislature did in Maryland coincided with the judge, which it did there. And in New York, what I said is that these are not the maps I would have drawn in New York. I guess after the courts look at what happened in New York, you’ll see different, but not fundamentally different, maps. I don’t think it can be compared, however, to what happened in New York and Maryland with what is happening in Texas, Georgia, potentially Florida, Wisconsin, where Republicans have actually gone to the city in terms of gerrymandering. Fundamentally different from what Democrats have done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How is that?
ERIC HOLDER: If we look at Texas, which gets two extra seats strictly as a result of the growing Hispanic population, they haven’t increased the power of Hispanics in Texas at all. In fact, they have created more minority and majority white districts in Texas. The map you see in New York really reflects a change in population, a depopulation of rural New York, as well as an increase in urban New York. So there’s a census base – Census Bureau – based on what’s happening in New York that doesn’t exist in the Republican states.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve heard what’s going on in Florida and what Gov. Ron DeSantis is describing. He says what he is doing with the redraw is race neutral. I know you totally disagree. Are you saying gerrymandering there is rooted in racism?
ERIC HOLDER: No doubt he is aware of race. What he is doing there by eliminating a- traditionally black seat is certainly a factor. Race is a factor there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But do you think it’s a deliberate deprivation of copyright?
ERIC HOLDER: No doubt this is a component of, I think they’re thinking, they’re persecuting Democrats and the fact that the Democrats they’re persecuting were black, I don’t think that’s necessarily a coincidence. The lawsuit we won in Alabama was where we said you should have additional representation for the black people of Alabama. No doubt those districts were drawn with the idea that they would deprive Alabama African Americans of their rights.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about Alabama, because, as far as I understand, the Supreme Court has tried not to get directly involved in what they consider to be political manipulation, but they have expressed a willingness to hear cases involving race issues. . Elections are still scheduled for November in Alabama, though the court will hear the case. Do you think that the maps that are being redrawn in Alabama will eventually be considered illegal and therefore the election should be invalid?
ERIC HOLDER: Well, you know, it’s interesting …
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is that what you’re saying?
ERIC HOLDER: It’s interesting, though. They will have elections in November based on maps that judges, including two Trump judges, said were improperly and unconstitutionally drawn. The Supreme Court said it was too close to the election. Therefore, we will allow the election to take place on those maps that have been found to be defective. Now, it remains to be seen what the Supreme Court will finally do with section two of the Voting Rights Act, which was the basis of the lawsuit in Alabama. That’s one of the things I’m talking about in my book, this notion that we’re getting to some structural changes. We have to look, we have to ban partisan gerrymandering. We have to look at the structures of our democracy if we try, if we want to save it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you have a lot of different recommendations in the book, but I mean it’s a long list of to-dos. And the problem you outline here, you say, that the whole democratic system is essentially broken, as I understand it, an unrepresentative Senate, an unnecessary anti-democratic Electoral College, a dumped House of Representatives, a panoply of state legislatures, and a Supreme Court stolen. A stolen Supreme Court. You say that all people have the same word in our democracy, one person shows up, one vote is far from a reality.
ERIC HOLDER: Yeah, I think that’s true …
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re saying the whole system is broken. So if Republicans gain control of Congress in November, these elections lack integrity? Do you not accept the result?
ERIC HOLDER: No. I think your premise goes a little far. I wouldn’t say it’s all broken, but there are …
MARGARET BRENNAN: I was reading your book there.
ERIC HOLDER: No, what I’m saying is that I would say that there is a substantial amount of our structure that needs to be repaired, that needs to be examined. And I think we should, what I’ve tried to highlight in the book, is that we’ve faced these problems before, and we’ve had heroes and heroines in our history who have faced similar problems. And through sacrifice, commitment, they have made a difference. And I think we have the ability to make that kind of change. Prohibition of partisan gerrymandering. If you look at the Supreme Court, we have two seats, one stolen from Democrats that Merrick Garland should have now, which, that seat was not occupied, of course, was too close to an election. And then Amy Coney Barrett was put in a seat while people voted. I mean, that’s the kind of thing I think needs to be addressed. And what I’m talking about in the book is to say, look, we should limit the term of office of judges, 18 years, and that each president should have the opportunity to appoint two judges per term and try to take some of the pressure off of that. , put partisanship and the in the process of confirmation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Republicans obviously wouldn’t agree with your characterization of how it developed. But Merrick Garland, you mentioned that he now holds your former job as Attorney General. There have been criticisms of him saying he is not being aggressive enough with the January 6 prosecutions. Do you think that is correct?
ERIC HOLDER: Nobody knows. I mean, you know, I have a lot of faith in Merrick and the people in the Justice Department. We don’t really know how aggressive they have been until they are in front of a camera announcing the decision to charge certain people or not charge certain people. But here’s my prediction. At some point, people in the Justice Department, perhaps the Atlanta prosecutor, will have to decide whether or not to prosecute Donald Trump. There will be a
MARGARET BRENNAN: Would you?
ERIC HOLDER: Well, I think there will be enough real information. And I think there will be enough proof of intent. And then the question arises, what is the impact of … this accusation? I am an institutionalist. My initial thought was not to accuse the former president of worrying about what would be divisive. But given what we’ve learned, I think you should probably be held accountable.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll leave that on this amazing note. Sr. Sr. Holder, thank you for your time and for sharing your book. We will be back soon.
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