The following is a transcript of an interview with Fiona Hill, the former senior director of European and Russian affairs of the National Security Council during the Trump administration: which aired on Sunday, April 3, 2022 on “Face the Nation.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: We are now addressing Fiona Hill, the former senior director of the National Security Council for European and Russian Affairs. She is also the author of Here There Is Nothing for You. Glad to have you back with us.
DR. FIONA HILL: Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It was extraordinary to have this conversation with President Zelensky, especially at this time when these images emerge from what has happened, the devastation in and around Kyiv. He talks about looting, allegations of mass rapes, mass graves. Is that how the Russian army always behaves?
DR. HILL: Well, this is clearly not a special military operation, is it? When we see all these images and unfortunately we follow a pattern that goes back historically. I mean, look, a lot of that wasn’t talked about so much after World War II, but when the Red Army moved to Berlin, there were mass rapes of German women in the city. And obviously, in the aftermath of World War II, people did not want to talk so much about it given all the atrocities committed by German and Nazi forces. We also have these reports of looting in other environments, in Chechnya, also in Georgia, when the Russian army moved in 2008, there was a lot of destruction without any Georgian equipment, reports of deliberate defecation as a team, already you know, for example, I mean, almost like stupid things that were basically meant to show incredible disrespect. But look, we see this kind of reporting in many war scenarios throughout history. But this was genuinely a special military operation to liberate a fraternal country from what Putin described as a Nazi. some way to teach. Ukrainians a lesson. Either way, this is really disastrous and obviously requires some kind of serious response from the international community.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, the United States was hoping that Russia would launch a complete shutdown of electronic warfare in Ukraine when it did. They haven’t. And in fact, one of President Zelenskyy’s most powerful tools is his ability to continue to communicate in the midst of it and show these images to the world. Was it a major strategic failure of Vladimir Putin? I mean, why does that allow?
DR. HILL: Well, that’s a very good question, isn’t it? I mean, is it because they actually proved they had no capacity? Are the Ukrainians pulling back? Because there are many very technical Ukrainians, many companies. Obviously, there is a lot of help they are getting from the outside world. I mean, we’ve heard, you know, Elon Musk’s assistance, for example. Much comes from individuals, not just governments. But there have been many strategic mistakes on the part of the Russian government in this campaign. Clearly, there are many things that were not expected. First of all, that the campaign has lasted much longer. Second, they have not been able to behead the Ukrainian government. They have not taken Kyiv. We have seen, however, that they have basically only wreaked havoc and carnage everywhere, that they are participating in acts not only of what appear to be war crimes, which we are now in the process of documenting, but of destruction without any doubt and, you know, that … this crazy looting you’re watching take place. I mean, that really, I think, is raising a lot of questions about this cacophonous Russian army that we all hoped would work in a much better way at all levels. And it is clear that if the information has not been leaked to Vladimir Putin, as we have heard from his commanders, this must also be a shock to the system for him, who in fact raises many questions about what he will do next. ?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why is Vladimir Putin so concerned about the Donbass region, the eastern region?
DR. HILL: Well, this is where he first met in 2014 after the annexation of Crimea. I mean, we know that in 2014 the Russian government, Putin in particular, had bigger ambitions. He spoke of this remote region of Novorossiya, which stretches from the Donbass region to all these port cities in the Sea of Azov that we have seen completely devastated. Melitopol, Mariupol, Berdyansk, for example, in Kherson another of the cities that have seized. And then to Odessa, where we are receiving reports now that they are fighting, or rather starting to bomb Odessa and raising the issue of fighting. This is an area that was occupied by the Russian Empire under Catherine the Great. Putin has spoken repeatedly. And for him, this area now in the south of Ukraine along the Black Sea, in the upper part of the Crimean peninsula, the Sea of Azov, which extends to the Donbass, seems to be the area he wants to secure he knows he has no control. no matter what.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to put a map here because, you know, we keep hearing that much of the world is taking part in this conflict against Russia. But in reality, it is only Europe. They are the Americas. It’s the West. Japan. Does the world really line up against it or does it still have life force?
DR. HILL: Well, he still has a life preserver. This is what is really problematic. I mean, the only thing we have to be very careful about now, I mean, I know President Zelenskyy is really making a massive call for more help from the United States, the West, NATO, and other allies. the European Union. But we really need to get other international players …
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hmm.
DR. HILL: – Take a step forward. We’ve had Japan and South Korea, for example. There have been protests over the conflict at the UN General Assembly in countries such as Ghana and Kenya …
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s right.
DR. HILL: But there must be more because Russia wants to represent this as a power war between the United States and Russia over Ukraine. That is not what it is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to talk about this on the other side of this rupture. Stay with us, Fiona Hill. We’ll have to take that quick break. Stay with us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION. We want to continue our conversation with Fiona Hill, former senior adviser on Russia to the National Security Council during the Trump administration. You know, Fiona, these are really these two personalities, Volodymyr Zelensky and Vladimir Putin. And it’s about trying to change Putin’s mind. At the moment, is there a succession plan if he no longer runs Russia?
DR. HILL: Well, there’s always a succession plan, at least in theory, which is that, you know, if something happens to him normally, the prime minister or the speaker of the Russian parliament would step in and have an election. Now, in these current circumstances, there was no way Vladimir Putin wanted to let go of power. In 2024 he should have presidential elections. In theory, as we know, he has two more presidential terms that he can contest, and that would take him until 2036. And Putin has, in any case, some power. He is quite determined to stay in his place. And there is no way I would want to go back in any way after a disaster in Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So is this somehow consolidating its power instead of weakening it?
DR. HILL: Absolutely, from your perspective. This does not mean, of course, that this dam is fully consolidated. It is very fragile. The situation right now, a lot of things can go wrong. There are so many things going on behind the scenes that we don’t really know. But for Putin himself, the last thing he wants to do is come out against the backdrop of protests, the backdrop for a failed war, as other previous leaders in Russian history have done. And there is no way he has any idea of a palace coup. He knows the story. He knows how these things work. And the immediate group of people around him who helped plot this war will also rise up and fall with him. So you can be sure that they are trying to root out any dissent, any kind of opposition right now. And also at the grassroots level, I mean, we’re hearing in public opinion polls that there’s a lot of support for Putin. I mean, it’s hard, you know, to really assess, once again, how deep this support is. People are concentrating around the flag, concentrating around it, concentrating around the Kremlin. And it will, of course, ensure that any alternative opinions are completely and utterly suppressed at this time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve written a lot about Putin. I know President Biden has read your book about him. One of the things he writes about is what has happened in the past with the ceasefire agreements in Chechnya. And that’s why I asked about security guarantees with President Zelenskyy. In the past, Russia has broken peace agreements. It has just invaded again. Is this what Vladimir Zelenskiy is looking at now? The risk …
DR. HILL: Yes …
MARGARET BRENNAN: About that?
DR. HILL: I mean, he has to be very serious about that. And where, as he said, they are fed up with the Ukrainian side of the paper agreements. They have to have something real and concrete, and that’s going to be hard, because it can’t just be in the United States. The previous agreement, the Budapest agreement, was with the United States, the United Kingdom, and Russia. And obviously it was in 1994 that Ukraine gave up its strategic nuclear weapons. That was pretty pointless. And so what Zelenskyy is looking for is obviously, as you said, quite specific guarantees from several countries. He spoke about the circle of countries that could be involved, and it must also be outside Europe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hmm.
DR. HILL: That’s part of the problem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s right.
DR. HILL: When Putin is making this a proxy war, he tells everyone else, this is like the Cold War. This is like Korea or Vietnam. This is not the case. Putin has decided to invade a neighboring country. It is a post-imperial …
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hmm.
DR. HILL: –land empowerment. It is based on history, its grievances, its vision of Russia’s place in Europe. And it basically has to be approached in an international context. Therefore, they need far-reaching international security guarantees.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Now it’s a global problem …
DR. HILL: It is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: “Fiona Hill, thank you for your analysis.”
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